Karen Davidson: The Way The Whole Cypress Grove Thing Went Down Would Get Anyone’s Goat – July 15, 2011

Friday, July 15, 2011

I am writing this as one of those opposed to a 1,400 goat building on the pastureland on Q Street, suggesting a do-over would not change the essential problem. While I am not sorry about Cypress Grove backing out of the project, there are several things I wish I could do over.

• I wouldn’t have yelled, “Get a permit!” at the meeting. Not a good example to the kid who asked so politely if maybe they couldn’t split it into several smaller farms.

• I’m sorry that their wording “plan to spread manure on the property next to Janes Creek” became “stockpile manure, and/or liquefy and spray the effluent” in one woman’s flyer. Stockpile (compost) turned out to be accurate.

• I apologize to the pedestrians who had to walk around the protest poop. For those wondering, that’s what a goat does in 15 minutes of posing for photos.

I think many neighbors would have liked the process to go differently, but I would like to consider the question of whether we were a misinformed mob or a large and well-informed group of neighborhood leaders with a hundred supporters. I think timeline would be helpful to explain how difficult it was to get the information, what we learned and when:

On Tuesday, May 31 a neighbor spoke with the CFO of Cypress Grove about leasing their cheese factory farm land. He was told no, it was planned for haying and manure spreading for a proposed goat farm and dairy. The CFO was surprised he hadn’t been told because he was a neighbor, and explained the project was 1,400 goats in a building that they would live in full time.

On Thursday, June 2, this same neighbor spoke with Mary Keehn to get more details, and told her he did not support the project. He was told there was still time for them to reconsider, but the project did not require a use permit and they closed escrow the next Wednesday.

On Friday, June 3, he spoke with Bob McCall from marketing and got more details, and they disagreed about the appropriateness of the project. That evening he told his family what he had learned, and as a family we felt that the neighbors should be told.

Saturday and Sunday, June 4 and 5, I walked door to door to explain what we knew, and I carried a petition for people to sign opposing the project. I was joined immediately by other neighbors with their own petitions, including the former head of Humboldt County Enviromental Health, who in 2002 was one of the health officials who investigated a rash of nearly fatal E.coli infections.

Some had breathed fecal dust in the goat barn at the Lane County Fair in Oregon. 75 were sickened, 12 hospitalized, five of them children with complete renal failure. The youngest was two years old. I retired here to help raise my grandchildren, who just turned three.

That weekend we learned the church and only one other neighbor had been contacted by the dairy. That neighbor felt the project had been misrepresented to them as a small farm with animals that lived outside and had a barn although Mary told me her representatives had said a “very large barn with a lot of goats.”

On Monday, June 6, more than one immediate neighbor to the project met with Mary Keehn to get more details, express their concerns and deliver signed petitions. These better informed neighbors were only more upset after their meetings, as details came forth: 1,400 goats, four acres of parking and buildings, quarterly bulldozing of three to four feet “deep bedding” into three-sided, 36-foot-tall buildings to air dry in the Arcata Bottom wind before being loaded and hauled away.

I genuinely believe that Mary meant well with her proposal, but a factory farm is still a factory, and people had a right to be concerned about pollution.

On Tuesday, June 7, I met with Cypress Grove to explain the classic protest methods we intended to use including a goat, children with signs, clever slogans on signs, the donated satirical logo. I talked about the plan and my concerns with Bob McCall who told me the closing was postponed so I said I would cancel the planned protest for that day. I then returned a call the the Eye left while I was in the dairy and Kevin said the press would be there at 3 p.m., even though we were calling off that day’s protest.

Cypress Grove had postponed it, after all, so no signs were painted that day. But I wanted Bob to understand I was being honest and up front, so I returned to the dairy to explain the press couldn’t be called off so more information would be helpful. I then met with Mary Keehn. She was really polite and I liked her, but she was very angry about our information-gathering methods.

In our conversation, she explained that the plan had been to buy the land, get the building permit and then show the finished project to the neighbors. No use permit process, but she was sure the finished project would be received well.

From Tuesday until the following Monday we continued researching. We met with county staff, we talked with our elected officials and we had a lot of experienced, smart people involved from the neighborhood.

On Monday, June 13, I attended the neighborhood meeting and spoke about my worry that once they built their herd to the planned 1,400 goats, the Right to Farm Act would allow them to expand even more. After the meeting the architect answered my question, explaining that he’d been asked to leave space for expansion towards Q Street.

There were many concerns raised that Cypress Grove couldn’t answer, but what really drove the meeting was the question, “After all we’ve said tonight, are you still going to shove this down our throats?” Cypress Grove said “yes” in front of 126 neighbors.

After the meeting I learned from Supervisor Mark Lovelace that the closing had been delayed until the coming Wednesday, two days away. The next day we made good on our promise: the neighbors met at the gate at 4 p.m., but there was another press release, this time saying that Cypress Grove had cancelled the purchase.

In the weeks since that happy and sad moment, I haven’t liked seeing my neighbors being derided as uninformed. As others have said, the neighbors weren’t uninformed, they were purposefully not told about the project.

The secrecy of the plans led to a lot of unknowns, but we got our information directly from Cypress Grove, and we were not unfair in our portrayals of the information given us.

But here’s what alarmed many neighbors – more than one Humboldt County planner told Cypress Grove that their operation was exempted from a use permit. They told Cypress Grove that the zoning language was overruled by a 1995 approval for a three acre confinement feeding building, attached dairy and unlined manure lagoon down in Ferndale. The approval was appealed to the Supervisors, and with a split vote it was allowed to proceed.

I think the question of how, and if, Humboldt County allows factory farming to proceed deserves a much better discussion. I want it to be less rushed, more polite, and more accurate. But it should be had legally, following the Ag zoning, with review under CEQA and a public hearing.

 

Karen Davidson is a Bloomfield-area resident who helped spearhead initial resistance to Cypress Grove’s goat dairy project.

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88 Responses to “Karen Davidson: The Way The Whole Cypress Grove Thing Went Down Would Get Anyone’s Goat – July 15, 2011”

  1. Karen,

    Below is the piece submitted to the Eye and published under your name.

    Apart from the e-mail address, someone typed your name underneath it. Are you saying that was an unintended error of some kind?

    You didn’t write this piece? It has been out on the newsstands for a week under your name.

    Do I need to correct the attribution? Who is/are the author(s)?

    Kevin

    *************

    Dear Editor,
    I am writing this as one of those opposed to a 1400 goat building on the pastureland on Q Street, suggesting a do over would not change the essential problem. While I am not sorry about Cypress Grove backing out of the project, there are several things I wish to I could do over.

    • I wouldn’t have yelled, “Get a permit!” at the meeting. Not a good example to the kid who asked so politely if maybe they couldn’t split it into several smaller farms.
    • I’m sorry that their wording “ plan to spread manure on the property next to Janes Creek” became “ stockpile manure, and/or liquefy and spray the effluent” in one woman’s flyer. Stockpile ( compost) turned out to be accurate.
    • I’m apologize to the pedestrians who had to walk around the protest poop. For those wondering, that’s what a goat does in 15 minutes of posing for photos.

    I think many neighbors would have liked the process to go differently, but I would like to consider the question of whether we were a misinformed mob, or a large and well-informed group of neighborhood leaders with a hundred supporters. I think timeline would be helpful to explain how difficult it was to get the information, what we learned and when:

    On Tuesday, May 31 a neighbor spoke with the CFO of CG about leasing their cheese factory farm land. He was told no, it was planned for haying and manure spreading for a proposed goat farm and dairy. The CFO was surprised he hadn’t been told because he was a neighbor, and explained the project was 1400 goats in a building that they would live in full time.

    On Thursday, June 2nd, this same neighbor spoke with Mary Kheen to get more details, and told her he did not support the project. He was told there was still time for them to reconsider, but the project did NOT require a use permit and they closed escrow the next Wednesday. On Friday, June 3rd, he spoke with Bob McCall from Marketing and got more details, and they disagreed about the appropriateness of the project. That evening he told his family what he had learned, and as a family we felt that the neighbors should be told.

    Saturday and Sunday, June 4th and 5th, I walked door to door to explain what we knew, and I carried a petition for people to sign opposing the project. I was joined immediately by other neighbors with their own petitions, including the former head of Humboldt County Enviromental Health, who in 2002 was one of the health officials who investigated a rash of nearly fatal E.coli infections. Some had breathed fecal dust in the goat barn at the Lane County Fair in Oregon. 75 were sickened, 12 hospitalized, 5 of them children with complete renal failure. The youngest was 2 years old. I retired here to help raise my grandchildren, who just turned 3.

    That weekend we learned the church and only one other neighbor had been contacted by the dairy. That neighbor felt the project had been misrepresented to them as a small farm with animals that lived outside and had a barn although Mary told me her representatives had said a ” very large barn with a lot of goats”.

    On Monday, June 6th, more than one immediate neighbor to the project met with Mary Kheen to get more details, express their concerns and deliver signed petitions. These better informed neighbors were only more upset after their meetings, as details came forth: 1400 goats, 4 acres of parking and buildings, quarterly bulldozing of 3-4 feet “deep bedding” into 3-sided, 36 foot tall buildings to air dry in the Arcata Bottom wind before being loaded and hauled away. I genuinely believe that Mary meant well with her proposal, but a factory farm is still a factory, and people had a right to be concerned about pollution.

    On Tuesday, June 7th I met with Cypress Grove to explain the classic protest methods we intended to use including a goat, children with signs, clever slogans on signs, the donated satirical logo. I talked about the plan and my concerns with Bob McCall who told me the closing was postponed so I said I would cancel the planned protest for that day. I then returned a call the the Eye left while I was in the dairy and Kevin said the press would be there at 3 even though we were calling off that day’s protest. CG had postponed it, after all, so no signs were painted that day. But I wanted Bob to understand I was being honest and upfront, so I returned to the dairy to explain the press couldn’t be called off so more information would be helpful and I then met with Mary Kheen. She was really polite and I liked her, but she very angry about our information gathering methods. In our conversation she explained that the plan had been to buy the land, get the building permit and then show the finished project to the neighbors. No use permit process, but she was sure the finished project would be received well.

    From Tuesday until the following Monday we continued researching. We met with County staff, we talked with our elected officials, and we had a lot of experienced, smart people involved from the neighborhood.

    On Monday, June 13th, I attended the neighborhood meeting and spoke about my worry that once they built their herd to the planned 1400 goats, the Right to Farm Act would allow them to expand even more. After the meeting the architect answered my question, explaining that he’d been asked to leave space for expansion towards Q St. There were many concerns raised that Cypress Grove couldn’t answer, but what really drove the meeting was the question, “After all we’ve said tonight, are you still going to shove this down our throats?” Cypress Grove said “Yes” in front of 126 neighbors.

    After the meeting I learned from Supervisor Mark Lovelace that the closing had been delayed until the coming Wednesday, two days away. The next day we made good on our promise: the neighbors met at the gate at 4pm, but there was another press release, this time saying that Cypress Grove had cancelled the purchase.

    In the weeks since that happy and sad moment, I haven’t liked seeing my neighbors being derided as uninformed. As others have said, the neighbors weren’t uninformed, they were purposefully not told about the project. The secrecy of the plans led to a lot of unknowns, but we got our information directly from Cypress Grove, and we were not unfair in our portrayals of the information given us.

    But here’s what alarmed many neighbors–more than one Humboldt County planner told Cypress Grove that their operation was exempted from a use permit. They told Cypress Grove that the zoning language was overruled by a 1995 approval for a three acre confinement feeding building, attached dairy and unlined manure lagoon down in Ferndale. The approval was appealed to the Supervisors, and with a split vote it was allowed to proceed.

    I think the question of how, and if, Humboldt County allows factory farming to proceed deserves a much better discussion. I want it to be less rushed, more polite, and more accurate. But it should be had legally, following the Ag zoning, with review under CEQA and a public hearing.

    Karen Davidson

    #33448
  2. Karen,

    This piece was sent from your e-mail address two times. The first time it had this note:

    “Kevin, I have appreciated the breadth of your coverage even if I disagree with your conclusions. Conversation is good!, Karen”

    My question is, who wrote that note and the opinion piece signed with your name?

    Kevin

    #33450
  3. Ian Ray

    I’m trying to examine the false dichotomy of safety comparing hobby farms to commercial farms.

    This document discusses the 33% of hobby farms found in noncompliance with regulations in Cloverdale, B.C., Canada. Tests were conducted to follow up on water contamination. There are pictures of commercial farms properly managing manure and hobby farms improperly managing manure.
    http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/had/library/documents/bib97170.pdf

    #33452
  4. lisa

    Well done, Ray

    #33454
  5. Karen Davidson

    Kevin, once again, I wrote everything I signed. I accidentally sent a note to this blog that came from Sean’s email because he had used my computer earlier. Karen

    #33466
  6. Karen Davidson

    Kevin, More clarity. The article I wrote was sent to you twice because i am not a computer geek and was trying to send the article to my older son, Aaron, who had been visiting the week between the two photo shoots/protests in front of Cypress Grove.

    I will learn to forward correctly eventually. Sorry for any confusion. Did you get Aaron’s plane reservations in that same email train? Could you trash that part?
    Karen

    #33467
  7. Thank you for clearing that up.

    #33469
  8. Sean Armstrong

    Hi Ian,

    I think it’s admirable that you’re teaching yourself about manure management. Emmi needs an expert, but I still think it should be someone with career in farming and/or public health.

    If you’re willing to take requests, could you answer these questions?

    1. Is Emmi planning on informing the neighbors of the next property you try to develop?
    2. Is Emmi going to pursue a Conditional Use Permit?
    3. Is there a draft manure management plan ready? Environmental regulations of factory farms are infamously weak, but at a minimum you need a detailed plan for how you’ll avoid contaminating the ground water. The only other factory farm in Humboldt has an unlined manure lagoon.
    4. Do you have a draft plan for controlling fecal dust? For all the time we’ve spent discussing the risks of inhaling goat poop, I’m interested in seeing what the plan is to prevent this risk. (please don’t spend another email minimizing the risk)

    Thanks,
    Sean

    #33477
  9. Ian Ray

    Sean, I am by no means an expert. I post what I find on my own. I would appreciate if you could cite some alternative data to discuss rather than ask me to counter statements that up to this point are unsubstantiated.

    Regarding your questions, 1 and 2 are not applicable as multi-billion corporations are responsible for stock price and dividends, not for day-to-day management of individual businesses.

    “A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT (CUP) allows a city or county to consider special uses which may be essential or desirable to a particular community, but which are not allowed as a matter of right within a zoning district, through a public hearing process.”

    The county would be backlogged for the next hundred years if using land for its principally permitted use required a hearing.

    Regarding 3 and 4, there may be more information on management plans once a site has been located.

    I think your count is a little low for factory farms if you consider a factory farm to be a loose pen confinement building. There are many operations in Humboldt County which have a similar setup. Some farms are required to adhere to strict pollution control measures or have to deal with EPA permits due to herd size or pollution potential. 14,000 of 15,000 dairy cows in the county live in large herds which could be subject to regulations which you might equate with a factory farm given your labeling of the goat house. I have researched some operations that had to shut down due to being in violation of the clean water act, were these standard farms? If other animal operations fit the definition of “standard farms” while a comparatively small goat operation is a “factory farm”, I don’t understand your criteria. I assume you are using terminology purely for shock value. This makes it difficult to understand your statements and is counterproductive if you intend for people to take them seriously.

    #33490
  10. Sean Armstrong

    Hi Ian,

    Thanks for clarifying Emmi’s stand, but a question I have still is whether Emmi will inform the neighbors next time. Based on how it went in Arcata…

    On the topic of whether the Emmi proposal is principally permitted, that’s a hard nut to crack. On the face of it, no, the Agriculture General zoning lists “feed lots” as conditionally permitted.

    However, that language was overruled, on appeal, over the protest of Water Quality Control Board, by a split Board of Supervisors for a 1995 project. The presence of the dairy building somehow negated the fact that the animals lived in confinement in a 3 acre building.

    Arcata has the same requirements for a CUP on its farmland, and the Coastal Commission likewise. It’s just that narrow band of County bottoms land that has a Orwellian definition of “dairy”, acknowledging the milking building as principally permitted but ignoring what the code calls out for review, the feeding and housing practices.

    Regarding giving you more sources about the risk of E.coli, I hope you understand that I’m relying on an expert in public health and E.coli risks, the former director of Environmental Health for Humboldt County. Maybe he’ll give you some websites about children with renal failure who are waiting for new kidneys from a corpse or relative. But please, stop minimizing that risk. No offense intended, but you are out of your depth, and you shouldn’t pretend to expertise that you’re learning from websites on your lunch break.

    The rest of it, the details of exactly what you want to call a factory farm, or a CAFO, or a feed lot, or… How about we just discuss “it”.

    It is a one acre building.
    It is 1200 milking goats living in that building. I’ve heard different numbers as to how much time they’ll have outdoor access, and to what, so please offer the current plan.

    There are a lot of names to call that proposal, but let’s leave that aside for a moment and explain what the outdoor access means.

    Regards,
    Sean

    #33495
  11. Jonathan

    Karen,

    Knowing how to send email does not make one a computer geek. If you ask anyone that is 30 or younger if they know how to use a computer they will look at you like you are indeed either ignorant or flippant.

    Its 2011, not 1988, and even if we are in Humboldt County, the world has continued to spin and even those of us in Humboldt that use computers are no longer ‘geeks’. For being so PC, you have some manners that need to be upgraded.

    #33537
  12. lisa

    According to this website, every farm, ranch and sale barn in Humboldt County is a “factory farm”.
    Obviously the term has no meaning and is purely used for shock value.

    http://californiafactoryfarms.com/wst_page2.html

    #33541
  13. steve

    At the Arcata City Council Last Night
    The reading of Proverbs: 07-20-11

    “First think and then speak”
    “The end justifies the means”
    “The squeaky wheel gets the grease”
    “Easier said than done”
    “You don’t get something for nothing”
    “God helps those who help themselves”
    “Be careful what you wish for”

    #33561
  14. Ian Ray

    Lisa, I ran google street view over some of the addresses. There are content-looking animals in Humboldt County’s alleged factory farm exercise areas and pastures. I sincerely hope all those farmers can hang in there the way things are going.

    I found a good document about California’s agricultural/urban edge. It recognizes both the coastal and the Central Valley issue.
    http://are.berkeley.edu/extension/giannini/Chapter12.pdf

    These items all seem needed:
    “Farm-Neighbor Practices
    1. Right-to-farm ordinances
    2. Regulation of chemical use in farm operations
    3. Clean water requirements for animal facilities
    4. Conflict resolution procedures
    5. Conflict prevention—good neighbor communications and accommodation
    6. Agriculture education for urban residents”

    The paper also discusses the proactive approach of not zoning urban sprawl on prime ag soil. That would have been a good idea 70 years ago.

    Sean, outdoor access being when weather is favorable, the goats can go outside at will.

    Visually compare the two methods in conflict here:

    Pasture-based (Tule Fog Farms)
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aPEEQ_veDsM/TfGVMGTQTYI/AAAAAAAAAHU/XjdgTVvLrbc/s1600/P1010301.JPG

    Barn (Summerhill Goat Dairy)
    http://chowballa.com/2011/02/14/for-goat-cheese-lovers-only/

    I have trouble accepting your claim that installing ag buildings on ag land is a bad thing. The door opens up for rezoning by being forced to be too cautious with ag land. Sadly, the paper I linked to above talks about our loss of productive ag land due to the phenomenon of urban-ag edge conflict.

    I have found some E. coli information. In this study, 93 goats chosen randomly from 6 farms were tested in a study of E. coli prevalence. 1 goat tested positive for human pathogenic E. coli.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.2000.00789.x/full

    Another prevalence study in Spain suggests that sheep and goat E. coli may be less pathogenic than the E. coli cattle harbor.
    http://ebm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/228/4/345

    Please back up your defamatory claims with something other than fallacious arguments. You have tried to smear commercial agriculture by inflating risks. You have not backed up the claim that you would be at risk due to any more E. coli than you are already at risk of.

    This is the last time I will request evidence. I’m not going to continue any conversation about something claimed to be true just because someone else says it is true.

    #33562
  15. Ian Ray

    That read to me like I was angry. I don’t intend that. This conversation is just too similar to homeopathic goat medicine to continue.

    #33564
  16. Ian Ray

    I mixed up the summerhill goat dairy with another link to chowbella that I was reading.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Summerhill-Goat-Dairy/168518413187457

    #33570
  17. Ian Ray

    Chowballa… no thanks to autocorrect.

    #33571
  18. Mark Sailors

    We can get rid of commercial AG when we drop the human population to %80 of current levels.

    #33583
  19. lisa

    Ian, those photos are the difference between a hobby and a business.
    PS, I want to see that same situation in winter, after it’s been raining for 2 weeks. Which animals would you rather be?

    #33588
  20. Ian Ray

    Lisa, shelter is important for dairy goats, so if I were a goat I think I’d prefer a house with other goats. Space is sadly overlooked in many sheltered operarions. I’ve looked at conditions where the spacing is 6-10 square feet for besding and the behavior is noticably different than 16-27 square feet.

    #33589
  21. Ian Ray

    A comparison of space requirements of horned and hornless goats at the feed barrier and in the lying area. Suggests that increased space leads to increased resting.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159104000322

    2 sq meters is 21.5 sq ft, 1.5 sq m is 16.1 sq ft, 1 sq m is 10.8 sq ft.

    Standard goat housing recommendation is 8-10 sq ft, sometimes 12 sq ft. The Certified Humane documents recommend 18 sq ft+.

    #33592
  22. lisa

    Yes Ian, the industry standard (ADGA) calls for 15 sq feet per mature doe.
    In our area, for dairy goats, clean, dry, comfortable indoor/covered space is much more important than grazing area for happy productive goats.

    #33595
  23. Ian Ray

    15 sq ft seems reasonable as a minimun. I’ve seen pictures of the inside of some operations that appeared to be about ten square feet. Unlike what I would consider normal behavior, the does were not prefering to lay down near the walls but in a farmville-like grid. I would think this would be cheaper in the short term but can’t think of any other advantage.

    Thanks for adding some knowledge to this discussion. The feel-good comparison of goat raising methods has been tiresome. I think it is important to note what is good accommodations for goats versus what appears to be good to people. I have been getting the impression that people would prefer a small house where goats don’t have much laying space as long as what paaserbys see is goats wandering around outdoors. There seems to me to be a fixation on outward appearance without consideration as to what factors constitute good practice.

    #33596
  24. Sean Armstrong

    Hi Ian,

    Hey, speaking of responding to requests, how about you come on over to the farm sometime?

    I would never challenge your expertise in factory farming stocking rates but they’re a little besides the point–your company is trying to open a polluting factory with no public process under CEQA. When I step back from the fray, I think, “If history is a judge in Humboldt County, this will continue to go poorly. I wish they’d stop digging the hole.”

    Which is kind of where you’re at now. The more you appear to be a bad actor among the regulatory crowd, the worse it gets. The more you run, the more they chase.

    It’s not exactly friendly advice, but it’s good advice: start over, humble yourself to CEQA legal framework, take the issues seriously. You’ll end up there anyway, so just bite the bullet and get to it.

    Regards,
    Sean

    #33615
  25. tra

    factory farming stocking rates…trying to open a polluting factory…bad actor…

    And you, Sean, appear to be operating a hyperbolic bullcrap factory.

    #33626
  26. steve

    Sean

    Do you never learn from your mistakes? There is a right way and a wrong way to engage in public discourse and it seems that you continue to choose the wrong way, the lowest of roads. Debate is healthy and good but only when it is done ethically. Shame on you twice…

    #33636
  27. Paul Damburg

    Sean, pretty hilarious for you of all people to be trying to step into the role of teacher where ethics are concerned. Really, come on now. You have no high ground on which to stand.

    #33660
  28. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #64182
  29. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #65785
  30. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #65789
  31. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #66436
  32. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #66438
  33. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #66834
  34. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #67355
  35. Tonya Stone Holwadel

    HI Karen, wondering what the conditions are like in the end. These farms always spout rhetoric about humane treatment and open fields. And its rarely true. If you look at pictures on Summerhills Facebook page, the lot the goats are in looks like a huge open dirt lot. Doesn't seem very goatly to me. I don' live anywhere near Cali, but as a vegetarian, I am always on the look out for healthy and humane ways to eat and drink.

    #68439

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